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doug818tiger
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Posts : 427
Join date : 2012-11-18
Age : 41
Location : sherkston ontario (portcolborn)

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PostSubject: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeMon Feb 11, 2013 9:04 pm

Ok I would hope that we all know who the black Barron is and if not that one or 2 personal should open a history book on tank battles
I'm Shur every one has seen the video on the break down of the battle of villers bocade and the death of micheal wittman ..
I'm not trying to start a argument but I would like to hear some of every ones therioes on how the battle ended up like it did and the quote on quotes what if ...
I personally think even after seeing the documentary on the battle ...it is wrong ....the Canadians were very under gunned with only a 105 Sherman at disposeal at the time I still think the British firefly knocked whittman out even at the extraordinary range of approx 1000 yards with the 17 pnder ...although it was probly a shit luck shot ..
Any opinons are welcome ...and again this could be a good time passing debate but none of use were ther so in sence we may all be right just as we may all be wrong ...here's my what if ....whittman and his crew rather die than be captured and self destruct the tank and them selfs setting the base footing in history for debate and good stories for generation to come ...

Let the therioes fly

Doug
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Strato50
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 3:57 am

Despite what my experience in World of Tanks tells me, I believe in reality there were many more chances to take out the indestructible Tiger with less than normally effective weapons, like high explosive shells, mines, hell even anti-tank rifles.

Hit the right spot with an HE shell, engine fire, shells ignite, KABOOM... just less of a chance. Or if for some reason a hatch was open, something got inside, kaboom. Who knows, really.

With tanks, there are many more things trying to kill you from different directions.


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Tiger I - Panzer III - Panzer IV - Chi Nu Kai -  Panther G
M4A3(76) Sherman -  T-34/85 -  M3 Grant
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knispel
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knispel

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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 11:39 am

I was almost convinced by the documentary’s conclusion too. Like Strato50 says Tigers were not indestructible. I would like to believe this tank ace hero, knowing the war was lost , fell on his own sword, but in the end I have to go with a lucky allied shot or the loader dropped a shell, or maybe it was faked and he escaped to Paraguay .
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Stince
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 6:16 pm

It's been a while since I've watch or read anything on Wittmann. I'll have to study up and back to you. study


It funny how any body nickname "Baron" is always involved in some debate about their death. The other one being the Red Baron. scratch

_____________________________________________
HL Panzer III   |   HL Tiger   |   HL Jagdpanther   |   HL Panther   |   Mato Sherman
Hooben Elefant   |   HL Pershing   |   HL Bergepanzer IV   |   Tamiya Leopard 1A   |   WSN T-34
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Stince
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeFri Mar 01, 2013 11:50 am

The basic facts.
4 Tigers were hit in the field in short order.
Only 3 were claimed by Northants Yeo (Ekins' Firefly).
At the very least 1 Tiger was hit by another Unit.
It was never established which Tiger was hit by which Unit.
On range alone the tank nearest the road was an easy shot for any Sherman(s) on the other side of the road, which were Canadian Shermans.
The Tiger nearest the road was 007, Wittmann's Tiger.


the black barron Wittma10

(Yellow line is the Canadian/British approx front line)
Wittmans four Tigers advance along the blue arrow(1)
Ekins' Firefly at (2) knocks out three of them, one of which may or may not have been Wittman's.
Canadian Sherman 75mm's at (3) engaged the Tigers but claimed no kills.
The end of the engagement sees four wrecked Tigers (red circles), Ekins got three but who got the fourth?
Maybe the Canadians got it, after all the range was short so maybe a 75mm round penetrated a Tigers side armour and started a fire which after some delay, detonated the on board ammo.


My guess and this may sound biases, is it was a Canadian Sherman that got the kill. At the time the Allies didn't know of Wittman, so it's very unlikely he would been targeted. The allies would of shot at was closest.

_____________________________________________
HL Panzer III   |   HL Tiger   |   HL Jagdpanther   |   HL Panther   |   Mato Sherman
Hooben Elefant   |   HL Pershing   |   HL Bergepanzer IV   |   Tamiya Leopard 1A   |   WSN T-34
HL "Golden" Pan-Tiger   |   M16 Halftrack   |   HL Panzer IV   |   Tamiya KV-1   |   Tamiya Tiger
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real_hulu
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeFri Mar 01, 2013 12:10 pm

He may be killed by air support because someone found unexploded rocket near the tank.
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Stince
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeFri Mar 01, 2013 12:28 pm

Not likely as there was no reports of aircraft the area that day by the Allies Army or Air force. Germans the also report the same thing.
The only person to report such thing was the farmer who owns the field, and as far as I know it wasn't mention until after the war.

_____________________________________________
HL Panzer III   |   HL Tiger   |   HL Jagdpanther   |   HL Panther   |   Mato Sherman
Hooben Elefant   |   HL Pershing   |   HL Bergepanzer IV   |   Tamiya Leopard 1A   |   WSN T-34
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doug818tiger
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeMon Mar 04, 2013 6:32 pm

Now seeing the map shown it would be some feat for the Sherman of Elkins to knock out the tiger of wittman only because of the range and the 17 pnder is good but not that good ...I see now that one would have to beleave the Canadians knocked him out with a shot up the ars end thus exploding the magazine and blowing the top off the tiger....all that done by a 105 howitzer .
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Stince
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeMon Mar 04, 2013 7:30 pm

We'll probably never know what happen, apparently the half track that was carry the report of the incident was destroyed on the way to the battalion HQ. study

_____________________________________________
HL Panzer III   |   HL Tiger   |   HL Jagdpanther   |   HL Panther   |   Mato Sherman
Hooben Elefant   |   HL Pershing   |   HL Bergepanzer IV   |   Tamiya Leopard 1A   |   WSN T-34
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knispel
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitimeWed Mar 06, 2013 8:06 pm

Any idea what the baron's mission was ?
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PostSubject: Re: the black barron   the black barron Icon_minitime

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