Okay I know we are tank people here, but I am trying really hard not to yell at the TV whenever I see Leo 2A6s footage. As far as I can tell, most if not all the NATO Leo 2s that are committed to Ukraine are 2A4s, and god forbid if they are the early ones then they are not much better than your T-72Bs they have now. Even the US M1s, if they are sending M1s but not A2s then we are talking about 105mm rifle guns they might as well not sent them. I am assumming that US don't have any active M1A1s and at least UK is sending the Challenger 2s. 

I do understand that they want to tap into the NATO ammo supply, but the Challenger use their own so not going to help there. UK seems to be all in, so I am sure they will ship ample supply to Ukraine with the tanks.

I am sure all the NATO defense departments are glad all we are talking about is Leo 2s and not be specific about it. For example I am sure Poland won't be sending 2A6/7s if they had any.

Germany's first 14 tanks to Ukraine are 2A6's from active inventory. And all Leo2's use 120mm smoothbores.

Poland will be sending Leo 2's as well. I assume they will be Leo 2PL's (upgraded 2A4's).

France is sending Leclercs (120mm smoothbore, Compatible with NATO Smoothbore)

UK is sending Chally 2's (120mm rifled cannon)

USA is supplying 31 Abrams, all M1A1 and later are equipped with the Leopard's 120mm smoothbore vs the M1's 105mm rifled cannon (similar to the Leo 1).

Hmmmmm did I say anything different ?

It was just a rant. Not every thread needs to end with Jarlath googling and fact checking all the details. 

BTW this is also a rant.

I had read the numbers from Germany and USA previously.

Actually the only thing I looked up was Poland's Leos (which seem to be the only improved Leo 2A4's). I didn't know France was sending tanks too and that led me into the Leclerc..

I like rants BTW... They give me excuses to not do work at work... LOL.

I was watching a video about this the other day.  Apparently, one of the big problems with sending Western tanks to the Ukraine is the Ukrainian bridges.  They're only built to handle around 50 tons, and all of the Western tanks are somewhat heavier than that.

So, there's a whole bunch of bridging equipment that has to be sent along with them, just so that the tanks can go where they're needed.

Now that's interesting............

I just read that the M1s will be M1A2s though the "version" has not been determined. They will not be drawn for active stock and it will be several months to acquire them and make the transfer.

Barry

MikeC wrote:

Hmmmmm did I say anything different ?

It was just a rant. Not every thread needs to end with Jarlath googling and fact checking all the details. 

BTW this is also a rant.

               Lost the ability to breathe there for a moment

The complete and utter foly of sending mixed bags of tanks is just stupidity beyond belief. It is going to be a training, logistical, and maintenance nightmare. Just the Abrams alone requiring jet fuel will make them next to useless since you just can't pop over to your local gas station for that. They would have been smarter to chose the Leo 2 and stick with one tank. There are roughly 2000 in Europe so ample parts and numbers.

dgsselkirk wrote:

Just the Abrams alone requiring jet fuel will make them next to useless since you just can't pop over to your local gas station for that.

Well, I mean, you could just take them to the airport and refuel them there.  I mean, the airlines would be a bit pissed off, but you've got tanks, so who cares what they think?

Thanks god they are finally clarifying. I guess the details in the devil. US is sending M1A2:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/us-will-send-ukraine-more-modern-version-of-abrams-tank/ar-AA16MACw?cvid=9d1f9c54eadc418aaa14300995125aba

And we are sending Leo2A4 as expected:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-donates-four-leopard-battle-tanks-to-kyiv-less-than-5-per-cent/

MikeC wrote:

Thanks god they are finally clarifying. I guess the details in the devil. US is sending M1A2:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/us-will-send-ukraine-more-modern-version-of-abrams-tank/ar-AA16MACw?cvid=9d1f9c54eadc418aaa14300995125aba

And we are sending Leo2A4 as expected:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-donates-four-leopard-battle-tanks-to-kyiv-less-than-5-per-cent/

Sorry, it's the WW1 historian in me that's just shaking my head in disbelief at the numbers.

There's an attrition war going on over there - and the US is sending 31 tanks, and we are sending...4.  Four older tanks that may or may not be competitive on that battlefield.  Why does this feel way too much like we're doing the equivalent of sending a "good luck!" card?

At least the American tanks may be few in number, but according to the news report they'll be brand new...and possibly customized for that battlefield, if they're coming directly from General Dynamics.

We have 82 tanks in total. 4 is 5%. US is sending 31 tanks. They have about 2,500 MBT. Poland is only sending their retired tanks since they are getting new ones from US and South Korea.

This is symbolic. We are not big players so 4 is basically just to show unity. Besides I think only about 20 out of the 82 is operational, so it is more like 25% of our active ones.

We are also sending 200 Senators and 40 millions in AA defense system.

We are sending a good luck card as that's all we have..............

MikeC wrote:

We are also sending 200 Senators and 40 millions in AA defense system.

Senators?

https://roshel.ca/products/law-enforcement/senator-apc/

Company is in Mississauga don’t know if they are made there also.

Ahhh. OK. I knew it wasn't the political Senators, but kinda wished...

Interesting APC...

..... That's the Ottawa Senators. We are sending the Mississauga Senators.......

Apparently they are made here in Mississauga. Just saw an teaser for a factory visit news item this evening.

The only job I got now is to stirr shit up  and have fun. 

Shoveler74 wrote:

The only job I got now is to stirr shit up  and have fun. 

LOL... You are up here in spirit! (Evil spirit... but spirit none the less! LOL)